best production

[booher]

It's funny that you say that about Wilco. It's obviously true and if you watch I am Trying To Break Your Heart you see just how hard Jeff had to fight to get some of the more electronic apects to stay in the songs.

But if you read any Tweedy interviews lately he shits all over the idea of music being electronic and heavy production. He seems to regret that time in his life.

YHF does indeed have amazing production. All hail O'Rourke!

Actually, I like YHF, but there are some stellar songs on Summerteeth. My favorites including Shot in the Arm, I'm Always in Love, Nothingsevergonnastandinmyway (again), and ELT (or every little thing). I think that even though some of these have electronic aspects to them, they're not over done. If you sit down and listen to the music they're quite small things that form into one big sound. It's obviously something the Slip was going for in their new album but couldn't really nail all of the time.

One thing I think that was a big thing on the production of Eisenhower is that they were working with someone like Elliot Smith's producer. Now, no offense to Elliot Smith or anything, but it's a bit up the road of emo. Some emo I like, I won't lie, but it's mainly more punk oriented stuff (Saves the Day, for example). But the producer just did a great job of Brad's voice sounding more high pitched and whiny. I think it was ok in some songs, but I mean compare the production of his voice in If One of Us Should fall to something on, say Angels Come On Time, we'll say Love and Tears for this example. You can just tell that the producers had two things in mind. And I think the fact that the Slip was going for a more indie type sound made them get what they wanted out of it. Not all indie has got that sort of singer, I realize, but I mean it was up the alley of the likes of Elliot Smith and people influenced by him.

I understand Brad's voice is really off sometimes. But I mean he has a tendency to sound really good in some of the songs they've recorded without the need of a ton of production (for instance, singing at two octaves in Children in December). I really liked him in Honey Melon, Alsoa, and even Tinderbox had more of the high pitched Brad you can hear on Eisenhower without having the same "emo" or "indie" quality to it.

Not to mention just the white noise they added in a lot of songs, like in Even Rats you can hear it when Brad's playing D5 after lyrics like "you can have my stereo" or "take a love song and..." The swooshing sound just isn't necessary. There are a lot of fills like that in a lot of the recordings that just don't 'need to be there.

[tim]

One thing I think that was a big thing on the production of Eisenhower is that they were working with someone like Elliot Smith's producer.

that's not entirely accurate. tom rothrock and rob schnapf are the most qualified to be called "elliot's producers". someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure matthew ellard was just one of several people who worked on 'from a basement on the hill'(a posthumous release). i'm not even sure if ellard worked with smith when he was alive.

[putty]

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/w/w ... go_crd.htm

so this conversation made me want to go learn wilco songs. this is one of the easiest ones i came across, and it just so happens that it's one of my favorites.

woo!

[booher]

i want to learn war on war. I just haven't picked up my guitar and tried to transcribe it yet. Sounds pretty easy though. That's a recent favorite. Love the melody.

[hoby]

for hoby:
the term well-produced doesn't mean does it meet a certain criteria. "does it sound clean enough?" its more about the purpose you can tell by musical instincts what a band was trying to achieve and did they get there point across.

Thanks for your definition, Colin. I'm not sure yet that I agree with all of it, though. While I didn't mention "criteria" in my question, I did mention purpose and unfortunately, the purpose of a production isn't always about what a band is trying to achieve musically.

For instance, whatever you want to say about the musical quality of boy band/pop tart music, there's no denying that the production on those discs does exactly what it needs to do to move units; to sell the Britney or Justin brand. It's got the hooks; the arrangements and sonics are tweaked perfectly to catch the attention through the hips; and it goes great with the video.

does it also create an atmosphere or sense. its a personal opinion more than anything else. is it a great album or not?

So, are you saying that a definition of great production is purely personal opinion? Of course, as with anything having to do with art, that has to be true to a certain extent. Perhaps my question would have been better framed as "what makes up your personal definition of great production?"

As someone who's spent a couple of decades in production, I agree that in music production, whether a band's intent is well-served is an important factor in the kind of production that most interests me. (Eisenhower is a perfect example of this.) History is littered with stories of bands or performers forced into production choices they didn't agree with on a record because the record company knew best. We all know how those turned out.

(Perhaps the most daring reaction to this type of thing was Sinead O'Connor's. When her record company insisted on trying to market her as yet another pop sex kitten, she shaved her head to make sure there was no way that could happen. Ah, Sinead...) Ahem, sorry, where was I...

Ah, yes; atmosphere, sense of place or space, yeah, definite points on my checklist. How does the production engage the listener? How is the listener rewarded for deeper engagement? Does the record give up more and more secrets with repeated deep listening? These are the things I look for.

What makes the production great can vary depending on the genre of the project. For one record imagination and new sounds can be what does it (You mention Radiohead, for me it's early Eno pop). For another, a faithful catalog of iconic sounds can be the measure (Chris Isaak, the guitar tones of any Stones-emulating group).

For me it keeps coming back to: What were the goals of the project and were they served?

Now, I could talk about this for hours (and often do when it is really talking rather typing) but here are some examples of some of the points I'm trying to make:

The Darling Buds - Crawdaddy (produced by Stephen Street)

A disc clearly designed to be a girl-fronted pop/rock confection and it succeeds beautifully. Arrangements and instrumentation all designed to build a frame around an iconic female pop voice. I always pull this one out as an example of a smart attempt at iconic, just the right side of cliched, pop.

The Latin Playboys - Self-titled first disc and Dose (Mitch Froom and Tchad Blake)

A chance for David Hidalgo and LouiePerez to explore their experimental side with the help of an amazing production team. Talk about a sense of place. These records are positively transportational. Sit down and listen carefully and you will be taken on a trip. It does feel positively psychedelic at times.

U2 - Achtung Baby and Zooropa (Brian Eno/Daniel Lanois)

Two of my favorite records ever. A band that desperately needed to reinvent themselves brought in this team for Unforgettable Fire and they all worked together through the next three discs as well. Enough's been written about them that I'm sure you know about them already and either love them or not. But even if you're not a fan of the band I think these discs are worth studying as productions. I wasn't interested in U2 until I heard these discs.

World Party - Goodbye Jumbo (Karl Wallinger)

Karl Wallinger is in love with the '60s and he nails them perfectly on this disc. You'll hear references to the Stones, Dylan, George Harrison, John Lennon, and lots more.

radiohead are experts at using odd sounds and noise without overdoing it [idioteque].

I'm still trying to get Radiohead. I can recognize that what they've done is very important but I haven't found myself enjoying it enough that I want to go back and listen again. Maybe it's time I tried again.

Also, based on this thread, I guess I really need to make time for Wilco. Lord knows, I've read enough about them. I just need to move them up the list of things I've been meaning to get to.

the dropped 4th beat on airplane/prim shortly before they make the transition to the slow part. i may be mistaken, but it sounds like the cut beat was done in production, not in studio - based on the little hints in the sound.

What hints are you hearing?

note: a great song can easily be ruined by production

Hmm. Can a crappy song be saved by production.

the production is great because it is some of the most innovative stuff ive heard in a long time... and it keeps getting better!

To quote Paul Reiser, "This is what I'm saying."

I really could go on forever, but I'll close with a very short list of producers/artists whose production work I love and inspires me:

Brian Eno
Daniel Lanois
Michael Brook
Beta Band

There are lots more, but I'll stop with these.

hoby

[hoby]

How about Exile on Main St., Physical Graffiti and Dark Side of the Moon. Oh, wait, I'm sorry...that last one didn't move too much copy (*grin*).

Ah, Phrazz, lovin' the tape compression. For me, it's Sticky Fingers, Led Zep II, and Everybody Knows This is Nowhere (Neil Young with David Briggs.) I have to say that I love Wish You Were Here almost as much as Dark Side.

How about Sgt. Pepper's?

Or Revolver?

Ok, I'm going way back in the time machine (maybe that's too much work).

Set that time machine for 1959 and check out Irving Townsend's and Fred Plaut's work on Kind of Blue. Talk about capturing lightning in a bottle!! With the exception of Flamenco Sketches, every track on that date is the only complete take of the tune!!! One take, everyone live in the studio, the playing is transcendent, and the recording captures it perfectly. Check out the remastered 20-bit release, which has the first three tunes tracked at the correct speed. (A fascinating story in itself.)

hoby

[diesel]

talk to me about tracking speeds. speaking of floyd, ive been looking on ebay for their MFSL vinyl releases. they claim to be direct from the original master recordings and at 1/2 speeds. what the hell does the mean?

[Guest]

just found this: 'Good-Sounding Pop CDs'

http://digido.com/modules.php?name=Cont ... age&pid=45

[hoby]

talk to me about tracking speeds.

In those days, sessions were recorded to a master tape machine and a backup machine simultaneously. Unbeknownst to anyone, the master machine was running a tiny bit slow during that first session for KoB (the tunes that would make up the first side of the vinyl disc.) This resulted in the tunes playing back something like a 1/4 note sharp on any machine running at the correct speed. Apparently nobody caught the problem until years later. A 1992 remastering job was done from the safety tapes (which had been played much less frequently) on the machine on which they were originally recorded. The result is a stunning recording.

For the ultimate KoB experience, I suggest listening to the remastered version on high quality headphones while reading Ashley Kahn's "Kind of Blue - The Making of the Miles Davis Masterpiece."

speaking of floyd, ive been looking on ebay for their MFSL vinyl releases. they claim to be direct from the original master recordings and at 1/2 speeds. what the hell does the mean?

See: http://home.netcom.com/~zmoq/pages/halfsped.htm

hoby

[hoby]

just found this: 'Good-Sounding Pop CDs'

http://digido.com/modules.php?name=Cont ... age&pid=45

Digital Domain is Bob Katz's studio/site. Bob Katz is one of the ubermensches of mastering. His book "Mastering Audio" is a must-read for anyone who wants to understand this crucial last step in the production process. Be warned, it's pretty technical in places.

As for his list - the roll call of mastering and recording engineers on that page is some of the creme de la creme. And his descriptions of why those recordings made his list gives excellent insight into what the pros themselves look (listen) for in a recording/mastering job.

Good find, Guest!!

hoby