jerry garcia died in 1995, but the grateful dead's music was alive and well until just a few days ago.
the Internet Archive, in the profound position of being the storehouse for decades of grateful dead shows, has had to pull all soundboard recordings at the request of GDM.
the band that was once the champion of the freedom to share live music, has now closed the door. i cannot begin to express how disappointed i am at these developments.
here's a very eloquent summary of what's happened:
http://cullensweeney.com/archives/2005/ ... -the-dead/
the music never stopped... till now.
Moderators: Cleantone, harrymcq, Phrazz
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magpie
- Flood of Joyful Existence Waters
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- Location: humboldt county, ca
the music never stopped... till now.
<i>become...
but remember that you already
are</i>
but remember that you already
are</i>
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RL
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magpie
- Flood of Joyful Existence Waters
- Posts: 526
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:56 pm
- Location: humboldt county, ca
sheesh, there's alot of hootin and hollerin going on about this and it's hard to sift through anything to find any real information.
some links:
a lengthy discussion of the matter on archive:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=47634
david gan's reaction and reaction to his reaction:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=48645
to clarify, audience recordings are still permitted, it's the soundboards that have been removed from availability.
some links:
a lengthy discussion of the matter on archive:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=47634
david gan's reaction and reaction to his reaction:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=48645
to clarify, audience recordings are still permitted, it's the soundboards that have been removed from availability.
<i>become...
but remember that you already
are</i>
but remember that you already
are</i>
Live Archive forced to pull GD SBDs
Ok, David Gans. Yeah, he's got some points, but both sides are right. Phil even fought the lawyers to keep them from stopping all trading. I got most of my SBDs from pals "close" to the org myself, but these are also found all over the place (Live Archive isn't the monopoly, just a very large and well-established and run server community).
The Internet is vast, however. Fathomless, actually. Anyone can put up a server and dump a hundred gig a month (maybe 50 shows, depends) and if you extend that to peer-to-peer, it gets bigger. Still, that costs money and kids don't want to pay. Noone really wants to pay unless they know it's for the cause. Back when Jerry was alive, people shelled out $60 for a ticket--but these prices were exorbitant because it really was "the greatest show on earth" (for those who saw and believed...).
Phish is also opposed to the widespread free show sharing, and I'm sure DMB management may have had a say in matters. Obviously they are keeping quiet to avoid negative publicity, but I think the decision will backfire and old-school heads will just stop buying anything dead-related: they've said they've "had enough" (and they have enough). I don't even know how many shows I have...but it's more than 50. I got less than 10% from online sources...maybe as many or slightly more are in tape/analog format, the rest were traded by just burning CDs. And almost all have some kind of defect, which makes it hard to get $15/cd for them. People like to pay about 5 bucks a disc. It costs 1/10th that to produce them...the rest is in marketing, inventory and other "middle man" types of costs. Internet sharing brings down costs, but it's still not free. I don't know how Live Archive stays afloat, given their popularity and I'm not really sure what's their biggest revenue stream.
I wonder what Phil thinks about all this. I blame China, really. I bet the millions being easily bootlegged is a factor. If I had a dime for every site in China I had to block...(I'd have about two bucks ;-}). They really are predators, but they're getting us back at our own trick (exploitation of the poor to provide cheap labor for the wealthy elite).
So, the AUD shows are definitely very much the hard work of the people and belong to the people. I'm sure Jerry wasn't thinking about keeping his grand-kids fed off his revenue and royalties, and at some point why can't GDP just find other young, promising bands to take under their wing and who says there can't be another Dead or Phish-like band with that kind of power and professionalism, magic and mystery, openness, courage and all those wonderful things we like in our favorite bands? Until they do that, they can't continue to milk the same sacred calf. That cow was slaughtered and now the calflings aren't so much playing guitar as they are wheeling for Jerry's estate. Remember the big stink about his will? This is all related. There is definitely a Greed Factor involved, and this is very much a part of the GDP legal teams. Which is why I wonder what Phil still has to say knowing he was outspoking in keeping the recordings free even when GDP shut them down the first time. I'm pretty confident to think that this would not have happened if Jerry were alive. However, they also made so much more money on tour that it might not have been an issue. That all companies are hurting right now is a sign of the times. Look at Merck laying off 7,000 people! And we're worried about the tragedy of Ramrod? But he was representative of what was good with the world, and you can't say the same about major pharmie companies. Or can we? (Where's my Vioxx? I'm out of Ritalin. Oh, there's the Prozac. ;-}
Ok so I just connected the Dead with Merck. Sorry about that, but it will happen again.
Alright, guess we have to keep sharing the old-fashioned way. Even though I have a rocket connection, I don't download nonstop like some people. I just have "way too much music" to listen to, and CDs are still faster and more personal and in a way more fun. I never know what's coming in the mail (and take my sweet time myself...also sorry about that but life is so friggin' busy sometimes when writing these silly long diatraibes ;-}).
Oh yeah I have my own personal perspective with this site but that's just my own perspective and that problem is sort of somewhat kind of being resolved but not quite there because the full solution is several steps, and few have the time or expertise to do this kind of trim work.
When we look at international file-sharing but also massive theft (Korea, China, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc, also Russia...notorious cartels making billions yearly off music and software piracy), we can see how lawyers might get a little edgy. They have little or no control in other countries, so the logical solution is just "take it down". This might seem like a good idea at first, but it is definitely a step down a spiral path to "has-been" even though I admit we're already getting there with the "GD" shows lately. They are still fun, but definitely that "milk it" feel is there and that "charm" isn't the same...maybe it was Jerry's spirit or something, but this I see in the whole world around me as we all fight for crumbs or just a breath of fresh air. We all can't continue to live like we are and music suffers along with all entertainment business. This is "disposable income" which can dry up as income is no longer disposable. I remember when I wasn't working...I definitely wouldn't shell out for another Dick's Picks, and now I'd rather give the money to fresher bands taking chances and working at the edge of survival, not entrenched power-houses who have led the way all the way to the most successful tours in history...eventually all gorillas get old and are beaten over the head by lots of little monkeys.
Ummm...I'd have to say GDs music will always be "alive and well", but their members won't. There are just way too many CDs in circulation for one Internet Archive being shut down (or altered, AUD vs SBD whatever). I'll still share shows and get shows and yes it's a bit inconvenient to not have these shows readily available, but I got most of the SBDs I wanted and I still have friends with shows I don't have yet (who are eager to trade for Slip shows, interestingly enough! ;-}). I think we can all find other connections for shows and think of this as a social-building exercise. To realize we have to communicate and learn how to grovel all over again is the most painful reaction of a response I can think of. It really hurts noone in real terms...it's only through perception that we allow ourselves to hurt. I was mortally wounded the day Jerry died (but then I got better ;-}). However, I think in those few weeks I really found out who my best friends were. Even those who didn't like the Dead's music called me with their sympathy because they know how much the music (and the man) meant to me (and others in my circle of "Dead-head" friends). It was a true tragedy. These shows are just a little hiccup in the digestive tract of one esophagus of the Net.Beast. In the grand scheme of things, it's not even a trifle trickle. The shows traded still physically vastly outweigh what was ever traded on Live Archive (my guess, I can pull stats out of my ass of course, but I've been cruising logs on more sites than I've been to Dead shows, and I can make pretty good guesses between the gaps). It's more the publicity that's a factor (negative of course, this can't be positive, even though Gans wants us to spin it that way).
Now I think of the Slip's "management" decision to stay off Live Archive and I'm curious if this does more good than bad? I really hope they learn to put out CDs faster...I try to buy them all when they come out (sometimes multiple copies, for friends, ones I've lost, I even have some dupes I'll probably just give away to people at random ;-})...but it seems GD Productions never had a problem with pumping out new material. It seems they do have a problem charging too much for CDs, so trying to pull easy-to-get material is only going to hurt their already dwindling fanbase.
I dunno...how many shows does Soulive have on Live Archive and how big are the shows they're playing? I think by looking at the spread and distro we also have a view into the most "active" component of the fanbase, so in this sense, trading does have exponential effect. These vocal advocates of music sharing are the most persuasive in their zeal to bring new people into the fold ("drink the kool-aid...go ahead, it's fine!"
). Rabid, ya know? If they lose that, they lose some of the spark or the "magic" that made people just drop everything in life and go follow the band around forever.
Now these people have jobs and is that a bad thing? Maybe so if they work for Merck. I think about this myself and wonder why I'm not working on the next commercial fusion reactor project (maybe I will). Now what do neutrons think about peer-to-peer sharing?
-Phrazz
The Internet is vast, however. Fathomless, actually. Anyone can put up a server and dump a hundred gig a month (maybe 50 shows, depends) and if you extend that to peer-to-peer, it gets bigger. Still, that costs money and kids don't want to pay. Noone really wants to pay unless they know it's for the cause. Back when Jerry was alive, people shelled out $60 for a ticket--but these prices were exorbitant because it really was "the greatest show on earth" (for those who saw and believed...).
Phish is also opposed to the widespread free show sharing, and I'm sure DMB management may have had a say in matters. Obviously they are keeping quiet to avoid negative publicity, but I think the decision will backfire and old-school heads will just stop buying anything dead-related: they've said they've "had enough" (and they have enough). I don't even know how many shows I have...but it's more than 50. I got less than 10% from online sources...maybe as many or slightly more are in tape/analog format, the rest were traded by just burning CDs. And almost all have some kind of defect, which makes it hard to get $15/cd for them. People like to pay about 5 bucks a disc. It costs 1/10th that to produce them...the rest is in marketing, inventory and other "middle man" types of costs. Internet sharing brings down costs, but it's still not free. I don't know how Live Archive stays afloat, given their popularity and I'm not really sure what's their biggest revenue stream.
I wonder what Phil thinks about all this. I blame China, really. I bet the millions being easily bootlegged is a factor. If I had a dime for every site in China I had to block...(I'd have about two bucks ;-}). They really are predators, but they're getting us back at our own trick (exploitation of the poor to provide cheap labor for the wealthy elite).
So, the AUD shows are definitely very much the hard work of the people and belong to the people. I'm sure Jerry wasn't thinking about keeping his grand-kids fed off his revenue and royalties, and at some point why can't GDP just find other young, promising bands to take under their wing and who says there can't be another Dead or Phish-like band with that kind of power and professionalism, magic and mystery, openness, courage and all those wonderful things we like in our favorite bands? Until they do that, they can't continue to milk the same sacred calf. That cow was slaughtered and now the calflings aren't so much playing guitar as they are wheeling for Jerry's estate. Remember the big stink about his will? This is all related. There is definitely a Greed Factor involved, and this is very much a part of the GDP legal teams. Which is why I wonder what Phil still has to say knowing he was outspoking in keeping the recordings free even when GDP shut them down the first time. I'm pretty confident to think that this would not have happened if Jerry were alive. However, they also made so much more money on tour that it might not have been an issue. That all companies are hurting right now is a sign of the times. Look at Merck laying off 7,000 people! And we're worried about the tragedy of Ramrod? But he was representative of what was good with the world, and you can't say the same about major pharmie companies. Or can we? (Where's my Vioxx? I'm out of Ritalin. Oh, there's the Prozac. ;-}
Ok so I just connected the Dead with Merck. Sorry about that, but it will happen again.
Alright, guess we have to keep sharing the old-fashioned way. Even though I have a rocket connection, I don't download nonstop like some people. I just have "way too much music" to listen to, and CDs are still faster and more personal and in a way more fun. I never know what's coming in the mail (and take my sweet time myself...also sorry about that but life is so friggin' busy sometimes when writing these silly long diatraibes ;-}).
Oh yeah I have my own personal perspective with this site but that's just my own perspective and that problem is sort of somewhat kind of being resolved but not quite there because the full solution is several steps, and few have the time or expertise to do this kind of trim work.
When we look at international file-sharing but also massive theft (Korea, China, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc, also Russia...notorious cartels making billions yearly off music and software piracy), we can see how lawyers might get a little edgy. They have little or no control in other countries, so the logical solution is just "take it down". This might seem like a good idea at first, but it is definitely a step down a spiral path to "has-been" even though I admit we're already getting there with the "GD" shows lately. They are still fun, but definitely that "milk it" feel is there and that "charm" isn't the same...maybe it was Jerry's spirit or something, but this I see in the whole world around me as we all fight for crumbs or just a breath of fresh air. We all can't continue to live like we are and music suffers along with all entertainment business. This is "disposable income" which can dry up as income is no longer disposable. I remember when I wasn't working...I definitely wouldn't shell out for another Dick's Picks, and now I'd rather give the money to fresher bands taking chances and working at the edge of survival, not entrenched power-houses who have led the way all the way to the most successful tours in history...eventually all gorillas get old and are beaten over the head by lots of little monkeys.
Ummm...I'd have to say GDs music will always be "alive and well", but their members won't. There are just way too many CDs in circulation for one Internet Archive being shut down (or altered, AUD vs SBD whatever). I'll still share shows and get shows and yes it's a bit inconvenient to not have these shows readily available, but I got most of the SBDs I wanted and I still have friends with shows I don't have yet (who are eager to trade for Slip shows, interestingly enough! ;-}). I think we can all find other connections for shows and think of this as a social-building exercise. To realize we have to communicate and learn how to grovel all over again is the most painful reaction of a response I can think of. It really hurts noone in real terms...it's only through perception that we allow ourselves to hurt. I was mortally wounded the day Jerry died (but then I got better ;-}). However, I think in those few weeks I really found out who my best friends were. Even those who didn't like the Dead's music called me with their sympathy because they know how much the music (and the man) meant to me (and others in my circle of "Dead-head" friends). It was a true tragedy. These shows are just a little hiccup in the digestive tract of one esophagus of the Net.Beast. In the grand scheme of things, it's not even a trifle trickle. The shows traded still physically vastly outweigh what was ever traded on Live Archive (my guess, I can pull stats out of my ass of course, but I've been cruising logs on more sites than I've been to Dead shows, and I can make pretty good guesses between the gaps). It's more the publicity that's a factor (negative of course, this can't be positive, even though Gans wants us to spin it that way).
Now I think of the Slip's "management" decision to stay off Live Archive and I'm curious if this does more good than bad? I really hope they learn to put out CDs faster...I try to buy them all when they come out (sometimes multiple copies, for friends, ones I've lost, I even have some dupes I'll probably just give away to people at random ;-})...but it seems GD Productions never had a problem with pumping out new material. It seems they do have a problem charging too much for CDs, so trying to pull easy-to-get material is only going to hurt their already dwindling fanbase.
I dunno...how many shows does Soulive have on Live Archive and how big are the shows they're playing? I think by looking at the spread and distro we also have a view into the most "active" component of the fanbase, so in this sense, trading does have exponential effect. These vocal advocates of music sharing are the most persuasive in their zeal to bring new people into the fold ("drink the kool-aid...go ahead, it's fine!"
). Rabid, ya know? If they lose that, they lose some of the spark or the "magic" that made people just drop everything in life and go follow the band around forever.Now these people have jobs and is that a bad thing? Maybe so if they work for Merck. I think about this myself and wonder why I'm not working on the next commercial fusion reactor project (maybe I will). Now what do neutrons think about peer-to-peer sharing?
-Phrazz
online petition to keep SBD's on archive...sign if you'd like.
-
magpie
- Flood of Joyful Existence Waters
- Posts: 526
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:56 pm
- Location: humboldt county, ca
wow thank you, phrazz, for your thoughts...
the sharing of thoughts and sparking of discussion is what boards like these are all about, eh?
you make some really good points and i have alot of the same questions.
basically, my feeling is that the spirit of things change when money is the primary, or sole, concern. *and* i still believe the best way to expand the fanbase and thereby increase the number of potential "customers" is to turn them on to the music for free...
yeah, the archive wasn't the only source for these recordings, but archive had definite benefits over other sources, like being able to get one song at a time for example... and being able to download whenever, instead of having to jump on a torrent while it's still seeded...
packages in the mail are fun indeed... i'm all for snail mail trades!
my list (in progress) is here: http://db.etree.org/gypsybird
the sharing of thoughts and sparking of discussion is what boards like these are all about, eh?
you make some really good points and i have alot of the same questions.
basically, my feeling is that the spirit of things change when money is the primary, or sole, concern. *and* i still believe the best way to expand the fanbase and thereby increase the number of potential "customers" is to turn them on to the music for free...
yeah, the archive wasn't the only source for these recordings, but archive had definite benefits over other sources, like being able to get one song at a time for example... and being able to download whenever, instead of having to jump on a torrent while it's still seeded...
packages in the mail are fun indeed... i'm all for snail mail trades!
my list (in progress) is here: http://db.etree.org/gypsybird
<i>become...
but remember that you already
are</i>
but remember that you already
are</i>
-
Phrazzz
Now we know what Phil thinks
http://www.phillesh.net/philzonepages/f ... tline.html
Last Update: November 30, 2005
An Announcement from Phil Lesh:
It was brought to my attention that all of the Grateful Dead shows were taken down from Archive.org right before Thanksgiving. I was not part of this decision making process and was not notified that the shows were to be pulled. I do feel that the music is the Grateful Dead's legacy and I hope that one way or another all of it is available for those who want it . I have enjoyed using Archive.org and found it invaluable during the writing of my book. I found myself being pulled back in time listening to old Grateful Dead shows while giggling with glee or feeling that ache in my heart listening to Jerry's poetic guitar and sweet voice.
We are musicians not businessmen and have made good and bad decisions on our journey. We do love and care about our community as you helped us make the music. We could not have made this kind of music without you as you allowed us to play "without a net". Your love, trust and patience made it possible for us to try again the next show when we couldn't get that magic carpet off the ground. Your concerns have been heard and I am sure are being respectfully addressed.
- Phil
Last Update: November 30, 2005
An Announcement from Phil Lesh:
It was brought to my attention that all of the Grateful Dead shows were taken down from Archive.org right before Thanksgiving. I was not part of this decision making process and was not notified that the shows were to be pulled. I do feel that the music is the Grateful Dead's legacy and I hope that one way or another all of it is available for those who want it . I have enjoyed using Archive.org and found it invaluable during the writing of my book. I found myself being pulled back in time listening to old Grateful Dead shows while giggling with glee or feeling that ache in my heart listening to Jerry's poetic guitar and sweet voice.
We are musicians not businessmen and have made good and bad decisions on our journey. We do love and care about our community as you helped us make the music. We could not have made this kind of music without you as you allowed us to play "without a net". Your love, trust and patience made it possible for us to try again the next show when we couldn't get that magic carpet off the ground. Your concerns have been heard and I am sure are being respectfully addressed.
- Phil
-
magpie
- Flood of Joyful Existence Waters
- Posts: 526
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:56 pm
- Location: humboldt county, ca
indeed...
much ado is again being made about the "reinstatement" and apologies made, however...
while these latest announcements are good news, they are in part a magic act as illusory as percy's rubber balls. as always, the devil's in the details...
essentially, a compromise has been made. to explain:
prior to this whole incident, AUD *and* SBD recordings were available for both streaming and download. then, they pulled SBDs completely, and certain AUDs (not clear on what exactly the distinction was there). so now with this compromise, all AUDs are back, and SBDs are available for streaming but *not* download.
the announcement makes it sound like *everything* is available for download again, when that simply is not the case.
i'm not meaning to bitch or imply there's something wrong with compromise, just stating the situation.
it is interesting that phil thought "<i>all</i> of the Grateful Dead shows were taken down from Archive.org" (italics mine), seeing as that wasn't actually the case.
for your reading pleasure, just in case you're interested:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49553
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49706
much ado is again being made about the "reinstatement" and apologies made, however...
while these latest announcements are good news, they are in part a magic act as illusory as percy's rubber balls. as always, the devil's in the details...
essentially, a compromise has been made. to explain:
prior to this whole incident, AUD *and* SBD recordings were available for both streaming and download. then, they pulled SBDs completely, and certain AUDs (not clear on what exactly the distinction was there). so now with this compromise, all AUDs are back, and SBDs are available for streaming but *not* download.
the announcement makes it sound like *everything* is available for download again, when that simply is not the case.
i'm not meaning to bitch or imply there's something wrong with compromise, just stating the situation.
it is interesting that phil thought "<i>all</i> of the Grateful Dead shows were taken down from Archive.org" (italics mine), seeing as that wasn't actually the case.
for your reading pleasure, just in case you're interested:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49553
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49706
<i>become...
but remember that you already
are</i>
but remember that you already
are</i>