OK camera experts, I need some help......

[headnugg]

So I've had my Canon A610 for a while now and I really like it, however, as I take more and more pictures I realize that I'm limited with my basic point and shoot camera and I really want to move up to the next level:


THE DIGITAL SLR


I can spend somewhere around $1000, but if there was a sick camera that was $1200 I would consider it.


I'm not sure where to begin other than to go online and start the research.

Does anyone know of any great models of the top of their head?


I want to buy a Canon, but would consider a Nikon.


All help and suggestions appreciated.......

[Dan]

the canon 20d and the nikon i thin d70 are the same, might be d80 not too familiar but they are top of the line and close to that money...

I have only used a digital SLR twice and it was borrowing. I feel like after the first quarter there will be new models and price reduction on current (still great) cameras.

now the lenses are what really get you going. for inside photography you want something with an iso of atleast 1600, digitals might get grainulated but you want something like a 2.8 at least otherwise light will not be adequate.

I use a film camera from pentax that i love. They are starting to bring back the quality in their new dSLR's they are light and easy to use yet dont have the support as nikon and canon do...

really look at that site that i had mentioned before, maybe i the other post because it will giveyou a good review and comapirson onf differnt models

[headnugg]

Nikon recently upgraded the D70, it retails for about 1K


So Dan, you think that waiting until at least January there will be better deals? I had always heard that NOV thru DEC was the best time to buy, but waiting until after the new year/x mas sounds like it makes sense.....


I guess basically there's going to be 2 or 3 models from Nikon and Canon each that are similar and in the same price range, around 1K. I suppose I just need to do my research......which I'm really trying to avoid.....


Basically, my main thing is I'm looking for a camera that you can stand in the back of the room with, zoom in all the way to the stage and the picture comes out really crispy. Because right now when I zoom in for too far my pics get really grainy. Also, I know that when I finally buy an SLR the picture quality will just be overall better. I just feel like when I see some of the pics I take, they're good, but if they were taken w/a better camera they might be great......

[Phrazz]

Nikon recently upgraded the D70, it retails for about 1K

D80 is a nice rig...definitely worth the bucks if you can afford it.

So Dan, you think that waiting until at least January there will be better deals? I had always heard that NOV thru DEC was the best time to buy, but waiting until after the new year/x mas sounds like it makes sense.....

Just think of all the holiday photos you will miss. But you already have a good party camera. The next step will be expen$$ive.

Nikon D80 is about comparable to the Canon 400XT or D20/30, but I do know a few new models are coming out early next year. Who knows? I'm wondering how long before Canon comes up with a 5D plus and then I have to upgrade yet again (*shrugs, looks in wallet*). It's a never-ending battle that you won't win until your specific camera starts making you money. Then you can justify upgrades by work rather than desire.

Basically, my main thing is I'm looking for a camera that you can stand in the back of the room with, zoom in all the way to the stage and the picture comes out really crispy. Because right now when I zoom in for too far my pics get really grainy. Also, I know that when I finally buy an SLR the picture quality will just be overall better. I just feel like when I see some of the pics I take, they're good, but if they were taken w/a better camera they might be great......

Ok, here's the deal. Light is not heavy. Our eyes are excellent at dealing with low light (cats' eyes of course notwithstanding), but cameras are a lot of work to squeeze those tiny photons into limited chemical space. You'll get grain with high ISO on film (analog) or sensors (digital), for slightly similar reasons. So the graininess of the imaging media is a factor when you want the best light-enhancement capabilities.

Now when you bump up the ISO, you lose resolution and clarity. The other noise elements may occur when you're switching over to digital zoom (which sucks on most still cameras, so don't use it). To get a good zoom from "all the way back" in a good-sized room means at least 200mm, and to get a low-F lens with that kind of spec is very pricey (thousands of dollars). The stellar performer is the Canon 70 - 200 mm IS L lens, which will set you back about $1700. You can do OK with a cheaper lens, but this will be OK results instead of CRISPY. To get CRISPY you really have to shell out the bucks or get close or get lucky. Using a tripod is not always possible...even still, shooting under 1/60 or 1/50 of a second will introduce unacceptible blur at more than a few dozen feet away.

The SLRs are better once you learn how to use them, but for specific kinds of photography you'll need specific lenses. You're talking at least a few grand to get one or two pro lenses (f2.8 or lower) and anything higher will have unacceptible darkness (clubs are mostly dark). The Canon has a great f1.4 standard glass lens that's only around $300., but to get that in a zoom is impossible with today's technology. Zooms have added glass to be able to make the range. I'd say get a good fixed lens at 100mm or even up to 300 mm but learn about the distance you can cover and make do with that at a low F unless you have big bucks for the 70-200 IS (Image Stabilization helps a lot in these cases). Even f2.8 is a bit dark for real low-light conditions. At a certain point, even $5K of camera gear w/o a flash won't help you with sucky lighting (most clubs have various lighting defects, generally they're too dim and for obvious reasons ;-}).

The leap from an A610 to an SLR is huge, so don't set expectations too high but think about what else you want to use your camera for. If it's just for low light clubs, you'll have to work with the f1.4 50 mm or handle the limitations of any other lens (even the pro L lenses have limits, though these are very slim compared with regular glass).

The newer SLRs go up to 3200 ISO (like mine but I haven't done the firmware mods) and even some newer compacts go higher (Olympus 1000). But you're still stuck with that tiny lens, so the SLRs are always going to have an advantage over smaller-lens cameras. However, that advantage costs thousands of dollars (also batteries, flash cards, cases and all the other fun stuff that go in the package) so take your time and maybe borrow or rent a few models so you can be comfortable when you make your purchases. Even if you listen to the pros, still take these various combinations out in varying conditions to see what you can do with them (versus what they are supposed to do in theory). And if you're not as familiar with the ins and outs of speed, aperture and ISO (among other things), taking some classes would help you save money in your camera hunting.

Now of course you could go with analog SLR and spend the money on lenses and developing...this is a good avenue if you want the photos for printing rather than publication. dSLRs are most useful due to how fast the photos can be put online as well as the "shoot many" versatility where you can try bracketing w/o wasting film (HDR takes bracketing to the extreme). You'll save enough on a high-end SLR to but at least one top notch lens...but shooting with substandard gear helps you realize when you do upgrade what you're getting and how to take advantage of it.

My favorite site is dpreview.com, but I also lurk on photo.net for reviews.

-Phrazz

[sm]

comparing cameras, i'd say the Nikon D200 is a better comparison to the Canon 20D or 30D, than the D70 was... even the upgrade D80, as great as it is, i dont think should really be compared to the 20D/30D/D200... it kinda stands alone in its class, the same way the 5D does... as great as the 5D is, i dont think it's entirely fair to compare it to the Mark II N... the 5D and D80 share a common "bridge-gapping" type quality, i'd say...

that said, 'nugg, to take it to it's simplest terms, the image is really determined by 2 things... sensor and lens.... you've already determined that you're going to need/want a long range zoom lens - buyer beware, a long range zoom lens with an adequate f-stop for that type of work is mucho moolah.

in terms of the sensors, outside of stepping up to a 5D, the best sensor's i've seen for low-light are from the Nikon D50 and D80. managing a store i get a lot of hands-on opportunity, and sometimes i'm amazed at what some of these "non-pro" cameras can do. the D50's low-light capability blew me away, and the D80, though not as great as i thought it would be, was still pretty damn good.

glass is the key, though... as has already been said, you need a big F-stop.

[headnugg]

I'm going to digest all this and make some sense of it. Then I'm sure I'll have some questions.......

[Dan]

Go FILM its a wonderful world

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dannyb123a ... 358107854/

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[headnugg]

that said, 'nugg, to take it to it's simplest terms, the image is really determined by 2 things... sensor and lens.... you've already determined
that you're going to need/want a long range zoom lens - buyer beware, a long range zoom lens with an adequate f-stop for that type of work is mucho moolah.

in terms of the sensors, outside of stepping up to a 5D, the best sensor's i've seen for low-light are from the Nikon D50 and D80. managing a store i get a lot of hands-on opportunity, and sometimes i'm amazed at what some of these "non-pro" cameras can do. the D50's low-light capability blew me away, and the D80, though not as great as i thought it would be, was still pretty damn good.

glass is the key, though... as has already been said, you need a big F-stop.

I have a bunch of questions......

First of all, SM, do you think the Nikon D80 better than the D50? It's newer and costs more, but I'm looking at what you wrote above....SM, would you recommend a Nikon over a Canon? (My price range is about 1K)

Also, in Best Buy's SUN catalog I saw this deal, which seems to be pretty good......

Canon® 10.1 Megapixel Digital Rebel XTi with 18-55mm Zoom Lens for $899

then if I buy this at the same time:

Canon EF 75-300mm Lens - $234.99

I get a $100 rebate back

so, I get the Canon Rebel XTi, w/18-55mm zoom and a seperate 75-300mm zoom for $1,034.98.

What do ya'll think of that deal?

Phrazz, I think you mentioned something about a 75-300mm lens being a good thing for what I want to be doing?.....

So Phrazz, SM, if you had to choose between the Nikon D80 or this Canon what would you do?

Of course I could always go cheaper with this:

Canon - EOS Digital Rebel XT 8.0MP Digital SLR Camera for $799



***EDIT****

Well, I just found the exact same Canon that Best Buy has(except in Silver) at Abe's of Maine online for only $697! So feasibly, I could go to Best Buy and get that deal and then just price match and save another $200, making the above deal only $834.98. That seems like a deal that may be too good to not go for? I guess I should see if Best Buy will pricematch Abe's, they should because Abe's is an authorized Canon dealer.....

[sm]

ahhhhh, the ole nikon/canon debate..... honestly, it really does come down to different strokes for different folks... you're dealing with the top 2 manufacturers, and i'd be surprised if you bought either and were completely unhappy screaming bloody murder to the brand.

so, it's really hard to recommend one over the other... canon users are canon users and nikon users are nikon users... unless they want full-frame, then they're canon users or outta luck.

but, i picked up a D80 on the weekend, and will wholeheartedly and honestly vouch for it. it's finally a legitimate step-up from the D70/D70s... and it's close enough for me to the D200 that i can feel like i have a pro-ish camera.. hahah... ie: if you understand what you're desired results are and how to get them, it doesnt really matter the class of camera.

in my experience, the D50 outperformed the D80 in high iso / low light situations... but barely. and not enough to take the D80 down any pegs. overall, the D80 is still a better camera.

im not really sure what the differences in USD and Canadian funds amount to for these items... or what the profit margins are yielding, so i cant really comment on the "deal", but i will say that im not a big fan of kit lenses whatsoever ( ie: the 18-55 lens), and you'll be limiting yourself with those.

now, the real question: when will someone (fuji??) make a kickass 4/3 camera so i can put those sweet olympus lenses on it and live happily ever after in d-slr geek heaven?

[Dan]

if you are doing indoor photography especially concert photography you will need what is called a Fast lens. This means the Aperture or how much light is allowed into the lens is very dilated. They are measured in Stops and so that cool telephoto lens will be cool but if you try to use it at a concert you will very poor results because there just are not enough photons being absorbed in the camera.

xti is like the better version of a beginners camera. Sacrificing from the gecko leads to discouragement as you want to move forward. Paralleled to photography, recording is a mega burden on my wallet. New equipment i am always seeking but they cost ridiculous amounts of money. So i got initially as much as i could really afford even though i saved up a little longer and got something at the time i thought was above my reach. I am satisfied now but i wish i waited a little longer and gotten something even better. Sometimes you cannot get the best deal because people know money. If its a good product they wont sell it super cheap. the 5d or d80 they wont sacrifice their prices but thats because they are solid products.

dig?

-dan

[headnugg]

So Dan, are you saying don't get the Canon XTI Rebel, shoot for the Nikon D80 instead?


What are other people's opinions of Nikon(particularly the D80) compared to Canon? In general? Specifically, the D80 vs. a Canon equivalent?


Thanks for all the help.........



***EDIT

So, do people here think the Nikon D80 will be good for indoor concert photography? Low light, you know the deal......It seems like people are leaning toward the D80.......But basically, it sounds like the Rebel package from Best Buy is really just a beginner camera and maybe not a good buy for me.....

I'm going to try and get out sometime this week, or weekend, and actually put these cameras in my hand and fuck around with them. I wonder if I can buy one and test it out for a week or two then just return it.....