First US City to Ban All Smoking

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hoby
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Post: # 13306Post hoby »

percyboyd wrote:
Behaviour coercion represents a serious threat to both personal liberties and freedom of enterprise. A state that uses taxation, communication and law to impose personal health is called a Therapeutic State, one in which all citizens are potentially sick and in need of cure. Such a regime elevates so-called public health to a plane higher than personal liberties or, worse yet, attempts to create an equivalence between health and freedom. On such a basis, the repression of personal liberties when they are not conducive to "health" as conceived by the state becomes acceptable, legitimate and even moral. A very dangerous concept is thus launched: those who don't take care of their health according to state or special interest dogmas are immoral, thus their marginalization from social and public life is justified. Today this mentality pervades among much of both the public and the state and, as we have demonstrated for years, is no longer limited to the smoking issue. It has expanded to food, alcohol, and even coffee - and soon it will expand to any other aspects of social life, since virtually every human action is potentially harmful to health. Such a concept, which transcends logic and science as well as morality and intellectual integrity, is sanctioned by the Precautionary Principle, and is the excuse for unlimited bureaucratic control.
Some good stuff in here. makes for excellent debate. These are very chewy questions. But it all kind of misses/ignores the point that if I have to breath your second hand smoke, you're hurting me.

Should you be allowed to hurt me to get your fix?

Should you be allowed to hurt my child who is standing next to me to get your fix?

Should Andrew, Brad, and Marc's cancer risk be increased bya factor of who knows what because they have to spend night after night breathing in the second hand smoke from a room full of people exercising their rights? (Yeah, one or more of them may smoke. I don't honestly know. I'm just using names we care about to make a cheap point. Like when I threw my kid in there, only different. Go ahead and plug in whatever names you want. Do you want someone you care about to be hurt by someone else exercising their rights?)

hoby
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hoby
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Post: # 13307Post hoby »

headnugg wrote:
hoby wrote:
That's completely different, though I'm assuming that you are being "funny"....
How come etahn gets the benefit of the doubt on being funny and I don't?hoby
Cause you're not funny :lol:
Oh, man. Why not?? I use lots of laughing smilies. I was talking about pooping and stuff. What do I have to do, shoot a video of myself getting hit in the crotch with a golf club and send it to some TV show? Damn.

Anyway...
I don't think your going to the bathroom in public argument is relevant, because that action is against the law in the first place. So you can't take away someone's rights by not allowing them to urinate/defecate in public since they never had the option to do that in the first place. With this new bullshit rule, you're taking away a right(privilege?) that someone DID have to begin with.....
Look 'nugg, you need to take a longer view. Okay, how can I explain this so I'm making myself clear? Oh, wait...
but... a long long time ago, in a galaxy not-so far away, expelling bodily fluids/solids in public was in fact NOT illegal until some legislative body decided that yes, in fact, it SHOULD be illegal and therefore did so.

same deal with smoking.
wasn't illegal before. now folks are rethinking that and many are leaning towards the "yes, it should be illegal" side.
Thanks, magpie. That's the point I was taking for granted as common knowledge. I guess, 'nugg, you're not old enough to remember a time when people would start their morning by emptying their chamber pots in the street. Or dumping them out of their second story windows. Or maybe you just don't watch enough period-piece films by Merchant/Ivory. Or Monty Python:

"How do ya know he's the King?"

"He 'asn't got any shit on 'im."

Anyway, like magpie said, before someone made the connection between living in your own waste and people getting sick and dying at an early age, everyone "had the right" to take care of business wherever. That "right" got removed when society as a whole decided it would be cool for people to live longer. (A mistake in the long run? Maybe, but that's another discussion.)

I don't think smoking should be illegal. I think hurting other people should be illegal.

Dupont or GE dumps a bunch of carcinogens in our drinking water and we scream for heads to roll (for all the good it does.) Someone fills the air I'm breathing with a bunch of carcinogens at point-blank range and it's their "right"?
I agree with you about smoking. It's gross. And I believe that second hand smoke is bad for you.
So we agree about the act of smoking and its effects. It feels like at this point the only thing we disagree on is the history of the legality of public toileting. That shouldn't stand in the way of friendship, right? So why can't I be funny, huh?

Trying hard to be liked,

hoby
percy

Post: # 13309Post percy »

I believe that people are, at this point, overstating the harmful effects of tobacco. I know there are some places some nights that get smokey as hell and can upset the sensitive. But,
if I have to breath your second hand smoke, you're hurting me.
So if me and you are hanging out, my smoking is hurting you? That's a little wimpy to me. It must be far less than auto exhaust. Could people be overstating the W.M.D.'s that are my smokey treats in order to justify the invasion of my local haunts?

If I thought this was the beginning of an actual cleansing of our world of pollutants then I might be willing to give a little. But I don't see it that way. To me it's using smokers as a scapegoat to demonize because of the guilt we feel for the muck we've made of the air, land and water. (None of which tobacco smoke has played a signifigant role in polluting. Asthma remains on the rise in smoggy California, the most righteous no-smoking state.)

I can see calling for the owners of your favorite place to make their place no smoking because then you would like it more. But banning it everywhere and accusing smokers of killing the ones you love seems excessive, but that's the kind of rhetoric we use these days.

percy
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Post: # 13310Post Dan »

For me, cigarette smoke has always irritated my eyes and nose. However, to tell people they are not allowed to smoke outside is an injustice. As much as i would like to see tobacco eliminated, that will never happen. Our society still after class upon class of DARE and Health, will start to smoke. The harmful dangers that we are told of cigarettes is sort of put on the backburner when you just try one out. Then it increases.

It is a sensitive issue for me because I have lost relatives due to lung and throat cancer. Death has plagued me for a while now, and out of all the ways to leave this earth, watching my uncle and cousin slowly give their life away in a room all too disrespectful. Because they were chronic smokers, the hospital staff treated them as if they were lower human beings. As if this is what they deserved for hurting them. And have they hurt them? My uncle and cousin, although way too young, knew of the dangers that cigarettes contain. They knew that this was a very probable course yet that gave no motivation to quit. Although there were attempts they just couldn't overcome or they just accepted that this is how they will go.

Cigarettes harm their users, not their friends. Nathan is right to talk about all the other harmful pollutants that our earth is exposed to. China's rising industry has directly lead to an increase of coal combustion. 2/3 of the country currently use coal as their primary power source. Beijing is among one of the top ten most polluted cities in the world, of which China houses 7. We must focus on issues present that can actually affect our health. 25% of the smog that is experienced in LA has been caused from pollution in China. Pollution does not stop at boarders. The amount of coal that is combusted in one hour might release 10 times the amount of deadly pollutants that 50 humans can try to release in a lifespan.

If this is a step to stop cigarette production for life, then it is a seriously flawed plan. I would love to see tobacco outlawed globably but i very well know that will never happen. Tobacco Alcohol and others will always grace this earth. No matter what we do, cigarettes will always be purchased and smoked. It is the user who makes that decision to do it, not the person waiting to buy a ticket for a show who openly complains and mocks a smokers cough. That is disrespectful to humanities sake.


-Dan
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hoby
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Post: # 13312Post hoby »

percy wrote:I believe that people are, at this point, overstating the harmful effects of tobacco.
By "people" do you mean people like me arguing for freedom from the byprodcuts of other people's smoking or the people conducting scientific studies and determining the effects?
So if me and you are hanging out, my smoking is hurting you?
Well, everything I've read, including the warnings on the cigarette packs themselves, states that cigarette smoke is harmful in a number of ways. Is the leap from "harmful" to "hurting" not valid?
That's a little wimpy to me.
The fact that cigarette smoke is harmful is wimpy? I don't think you can refer to a fact or scientific finding as wimpy. Or maybe you can, but it doesn't make for a convincing argument in my eyes.

If you're refering to my reaction to your smoking, I'm not sure how you can do that since you don't know what my reaction is. If I start whining and whimpering until you put out your cig in disgust, that can be characterized as wimpy. If I ask you politely to extinguish it or I excuse myself and leave, that can be characterized as constructive problem-solving. If I throw a drink in your face, that can be characterized as stupid. But I don't think you can assign "wimpy" to my statement of something that the large majority of people (including the manufacturers) recognize: Cigarette smoke is harmful. It hurts you. You can choose to ignore the consequences of the fact, but I don't think you can call it wimpy.
It must be far less than auto exhaust.
On a macro scale I'm sure you're right, but that doesn't lessen the effect your cigarette smoke has on you or the person next to you.
Could people be overstating the W.M.D.'s that are my smokey treats in order to justify the invasion of my local haunts?
Heh. Very good. :)

Again, which people? If you think I'm overstating, point me to research that proves me wrong. If you can't do that but just believe that the research that convinces me of this stuff is incorrect, then we should drop this thread and go back to talking about our mutual love of music. It's an interesting exercise to talk about what we can do as people to find a common ground when a freedom you should get to enjoy conflicts with a freedom I should get to enjoy. But we're not going to get anywhere in an "argument" about the validity of the basic tenant on which the discussion rests ("cigarette smoke is harmful").
If I thought this was the beginning of an actual cleansing of our world of pollutants then I might be willing to give a little.


Who's to say it isn't? What if, emboldened by their success in standing up to the tobacco lobby, people, lawmakers, whomever start standing up to big oil, Dupont, Monsanto? (I'm not really that naive. It's just a hypothetical.)
To me it's using smokers as a scapegoat to demonize because of the guilt we feel for the muck we've made of the air, land and water. (None of which tobacco smoke has played a signifigant role in polluting. Asthma remains on the rise in smoggy California, the most righteous no-smoking state.)
If you're going to claim that smokers are being scapegoated, don't talk about it in terms of pollution. Talk about it in terms of health care costs and the crumbling health care system. "It's those damn smokers increasing the burden on the system with all their additional diseases brought on by the cigs." Like blaming "welfare mothers" for the "budget deficit".

As for the asthma and smog thing, I'd say that all comes down to the least painful way to make change in an untenable atmospheric condition. Cali is righteous on non-smoking but "nobody walks in LA," right? There's NO WAY this country will give up it's oil jones until the supply runs out and it's catacalysmic cold turkey time. Oil, along with war, is the bedrock of our economy. But cigarettes? There's a way to cut back on pollution that we as a country can survive.
I can see calling for the owners of your favorite place to make their place no smoking because then you would like it more.
Something I NEVER did. If I can't take the smoke, I don't go.
But banning it everywhere and accusing smokers of killing the ones you love seems excessive, but that's the kind of rhetoric we use these days.
I'm pretty sure I never endorsed banning it everywhere. I said people can smoke in their homes and in their cars (if they keep their butts to themselves) but that I don't want to have to breath their smoke. I don't know that banning it everywhere is what's needed to meet my needs.

And I certainly never accused anyone of killing the ones I love. You're "escalating" my argument to make it sound less valid. I said that cigarette smoke is harmful. It hurts those who breath it. But if you don't accept the data that shows the harm, then we won't get anywhere on solving the issue of how we can coexist, because we're working from different realities. (Not the best word, but I'm tired.)

Again, if what I take as fact ("Cigarette smoke is harmful"), you see as rhetoric, then let me end the discussion with this (assuming you're the Percy I think you are):

Percy, smoker or not, your music fills my world with joy and "Before You Were Born" makes my wife incredibly happy. For this, I thank you. :D

peace,

hoby
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Post: # 13313Post hoby »

Dan wrote:watching my uncle and cousin slowly give their life away in a room all too disrespectful. Because they were chronic smokers, the hospital staff treated them as if they were lower human beings.
I'm sorry for your losses, Dan. To have the pain of loss compounded by that kind of insensitivity is just plain shitty.

Here's the thing I never understood about hospitals: If there's any group on this planet that should be scared away from smoking, you'd think it would be hospital staff who see the consequences all day, every day. Yet, when you drive up to the hospital, you always see a bunch of staff outside smoking.

(My dad worked in healthcare for many years and I remember him telling me that the anti-smoking movement was going nowhere fast until doctors started reading the data and quitting smoking themselves. That was the tipping point.)
Cigarettes harm their users, not their friends.
So you dispute the findings about the deleterious effects of second-hand smoke? Based on what evidence? (Not challenging you in an "in-your-face" way. Just curious to know the source of your opinion.)
Nathan is right to talk about all the other harmful pollutants that our earth is exposed to. China's rising industry has directly lead to an increase of coal combustion. 2/3 of the country currently use coal as their primary power source. Beijing is among one of the top ten most polluted cities in the world, of which China houses 7. We must focus on issues present that can actually affect our health. 25% of the smog that is experienced in LA has been caused from pollution in China. Pollution does not stop at boarders. The amount of coal that is combusted in one hour might release 10 times the amount of deadly pollutants that 50 humans can try to release in a lifespan.
He's right, you're right. This is all serious shit. But I still don't think any of it changes the facts about the dangers of cigarette smoke.
It is the user who makes that decision to do it, not the person waiting to buy a ticket for a show who openly complains and mocks a smokers cough.
The mocking of the cough isn't a constructive way to handle it. (Don't discount that in some cases the cough might be real, though.) But is the non-smoker not allowed to ask the smoker to refrain? (Is that what you mean by openly complaining?)

peace,

hoby
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Big Bob
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Post: # 13316Post Big Bob »

So what is the motivation for a city wide smoking ban? Is it to protect non-smokers from the dangerous second hand smoke? Perhaps it is an indirect way of discouraging people from starting to smoke in the first place, in order to save them from themselves.

In regards to the former question, much talk seems to be about the 'right' of the non-smoker to breath clean air vs. the 'right' of the smoker to smoke at their own disgretion. I believe that outlawing smoking in public is going overboard. As overpopulated as our planet is becoming, there seems to be ample space left for smokers to indulge without violating a non-smoker's personal space. I would hope that people can come to verbal agreements about when and where the smoking takes place without resorting to laws or fisticuffs, but unfortunately this does not always seem to be the case.

If a law must be made, it should have to do with distance one must be from an entrance to a building. But these rules tend to be meaningless. Each of the two schools I have attended had this rule, but the smokers do not pay any attention to it, and no one is going around enforcing it. It results in walking through a literal cloud of smoke when I want to walk in or out of the building where my classes are. This is particularly annoying to people who have asthma, but have no other way of getting to class.

As far as enforcement goes, i'm sure that a good amount of the policemen in Belmont, CA are smokers themselves. Will they simply disregard the law and allow people to smoke wherever they want to? Will they continue to smoke in their cars themselves? How could one reasonably expect a smoking police officer to hand out fines to people for smoking? (Not that policemen are never hypocrits, but I digress.)

Outlawing smoking in your own car also seems extreme, but there are a few obvious problems with smoking in the car that don't have to do with the health of the smoker or the disgust of the non-smokers driving by. Phrazz's point about starting fires by throwing lit cigarettes out the window is a good one. If it was legal to smoke in your car, but illegal to throw the cigarette butt out of the window, it would seem impossible to ever catch someone in the act (unless they were stupid enough to do it with a cop on their tail). It would be much easier to catch someone smoking in their car and punish them because there is a good chance that they would have thrown the butt out of the window when they were done, but this is like punishing someone for driving 50 mph 100 yards before a school zone assuming that they were not going to slow down. (Minority Report comes to mind.)

I'm sure that an unfortunate number of parents smoke in their car (and house) while their kids are there. Kids are particularly susceptable to second-hand smoke because they don't have the linguistic ability or power to tell/ask their parent not to smoke. Growing up in a cloud of second hand smoke is something that is probably an unfortunate innevitability for lots of children, but outlawing smoking in the car would at least give those kids 10 minutes of fresh air on the way to the grocery store.

In regards to the latter question, does a governing body have a 'right' to enforce laws that forbid people from harming themselves? One could take a paternalistic view on this and argue that smokers, in the long run, will regret having started smoking. If this is the case, does the government have a right (duty??) to stop people from starting to smoke in the first place, such as a parent might see themself as having a duty to prevent their child from smoking, even though little Jimmy thinks it is the coolest.

Another question arises from this...could outlawing a product such as tobacco actually be a productive way of increasing the health of society? Or will people still find a way to smoke, as they found a way to consume alcohol during prohibition, or as people continually find ways to use other illicit substances such as marijuana, cocaine, heroin, etc.

The positive effects of outlawing such substances are arguable, but what could possibly be a reasonable punishment to give someone for harming themselves? The punishment often seems to outweigh the harm of the substance itself (especially in the case of weed and other not-so-mild hallucinogens). Could a legalist approach be used to justify such punishments? If the overly harsh punishments deter people from using these substances, do the ends justify the means? It seems that anti-drug activists often seem to justify their blatantly false propoganda with the idea that it will make less people use these substances which they have deemed to be dangerous. In the end, they are convinced that they have done good for society, even though they have never tried these substances and really don't know jack shit about them....but now i'm getting off subject.

[Drugs seem to be illegal because of the possible risk posed (to one's self or another) if they are not taken responsibly. But using this logic, shouldn't mountain climbing be illegal? A careless mountain climber could kill himself and his partner by being irresponsible. When people die from mountain climbing, no one blames the mountain, and neither should the drugs be blamed because of irresponsible use.]

From an ethical standpoint, is it ethical to smoke cigarettes? It has been documented that smoking cigarettes is obviously bad for one's health.
Cigarette smoking is the single most preventable cause of premature death in the United States. Each year, more than 400,000 Americans die from cigarette smoking. In fact, one in every five deaths in the United States is smoking related. Every year, smoking kills more than 276,000 men and 142,000 women.
(http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/research_dat ... ortali.htm)

But what is wrong with doing something that will eventually lead to a slow and painful death? In order "to have a right one must have the ability or desire that to which one has a right." (Peter Singer, Practical Ethics) The smoker desires to be allowed to smoke. The non-smoker desires to breath clean air. Any talk about rights is therefore meaningless in this context. If the smoker desires to smoke, regardless of the fact that he/she knows it will be harmful to their health, there is no reason to stop them besides smoking too close to someone who desires to breathe clean air, but this is obviously a problem that can be easily solved using civil communication.

Another ethical issue that comes to mind has to do with health care costs. Our country is severly lacking a competent health care system, but that's beside the point. Of the 400,000 Americans who die every year from tobacco related illnesses, a vast majority of them must spend their last weeks/months/years in the hospital. There is no doubt that this greatly and unneccessarily increases health insurance costs, which are (not coincidentally) constantly on the rise. In our current system, many people who need health insurance can't afford to have it. Those who can afford it would be able to pay for the medical treatment without health insurance anyways, so needless to say, it's a pretty fucked up system that needs radical reform.

To blame smokers for the awful system would be to scapegoat them, as they obviously aren't the only ones responsible for the problems with our health care system.

And to blame someone on his deathbed for increasing your health insurance costs by a few cents seems pretty damn cold-hearted, but if people stopped smoking it sure would help out a bunch.

Until then, I'll drink another to you as I light my cigarette.
Last edited by Big Bob on Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post: # 13318Post magpie »

wow, i'm really loving some of the posts here... excellent discussion.
hats off to hoby and bob...
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hoby
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Post: # 13322Post hoby »

magpie wrote:wow, i'm really loving some of the posts here... excellent discussion.
hats off to hoby and bob...
Thanks magpie. I agree. This is a highly-charged topic and everyone has kept things civil and productive.

Except for headnugg when he said I wasn't funny. That was the type of scurrilous attack usually reservered for political campaigns and it makes me fightin' mad!!! :x

Well, not really. What it does is motivate me to spend my hard-earned cash on the Carrot Top Home Comedy Kit!!! Guaranteed to make you funny in just 6 weeks or your money back!!!

Yeah, I'll be funny then!!! You'll see. I'll study really hard and become fluent in the Carrot Top theory of comedic endeavor and then I'll come to your house and do comedy stuff until you admit I'm funny.

Or beg for mercy.

You've been a great audience. Thanks for coming. (See, I got that from Chapter 1.)

hoby
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Post: # 13323Post hoby »

Well done, Bob.
If a law must be made, it should have to do with distance one must be from an entrance to a building. But these rules tend to be meaningless. Each of the two schools I have attended had this rule, but the smokers do not pay any attention to it, and no one is going around enforcing it. It results in walking through a literal cloud of smoke when I want to walk in or out of the building where my classes are. This is particularly annoying to people who have asthma, but have no other way of getting to class.
This makes me nuts. One solution is to build shelters or enclosures for smokers who need to go outside to smoke. Give them a protected windbreak-type structure so that they don't have to stand in the doorway.
Phrazz's point about starting fires by throwing lit cigarettes out the window is a good one.
Here, here. For me, it comes back to the responsibiity/courtesy thing. You want to smoke, fine, but be adult enough to take responsibility for the results/outcomes/trash. Don't smoke your cig and then leave it to us to clean up your trash, put out your fire, etc.
I'm sure that an unfortunate number of parents smoke in their car (and house) while their kids are there. Kids are particularly susceptable to second-hand smoke because they don't have the linguistic ability or power to tell/ask their parent not to smoke. Growing up in a cloud of second hand smoke is something that is probably an unfortunate innevitability for lots of children,
I'll admit, this makes me pretty angry. I get too mad to talk rationally about it, so I'll leave it there.
[Drugs seem to be illegal because of the possible risk posed (to one's self or another) if they are not taken responsibly. But using this logic, shouldn't mountain climbing be illegal? A careless mountain climber could kill himself and his partner by being irresponsible. When people die from mountain climbing, no one blames the mountain, and neither should the drugs be blamed because of irresponsible use.]
Good point. I don't think the drug should be illegal. The irresponsible or inconsiderate use of the drug should be illegal. Like booze. The use of alcohol within prescribed limits (age, etc) is legal. Irresponsible use of booze, such as drunk driving, is illegal.

(Although I don't think drunk driving is illegal enough. I suspect that I was killed by a drunk driver in a previous life because this topic makes me SO unreasonably angry that I try to avoid the topic in polite conversation.)
From an ethical standpoint, is it ethical to smoke cigarettes? It has been documented that smoking cigarettes is obviously bad for one's health.
Cigarette smoking is the single most preventable cause of premature death in the United States. Each year, more than 400,000 Americans die from cigarette smoking. In fact, one in every five deaths in the United States is smoking related. Every year, smoking kills more than 276,000 men and 142,000 women.
(http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/research_dat ... ortali.htm)
Percy?
If the smoker desires to smoke, regardless of the fact that he/she knows it will be harmful to their health, there is no reason to stop them besides smoking too close to someone who desires to breathe clean air, but this is obviously a problem that can be easily solved using civil communication.
As you pointed out earlier, this is unfortunately not always the case. Then what?
Another ethical issue that comes to mind has to do with health care costs.
To blame smokers for the awful system would be to scapegoat them, as they obviously aren't the only ones responsible for the problems with our health care system.

And to blame someone on his deathbed for increasing your health insurance costs by a few cents seems pretty damn cold-hearted, but if people stopped smoking it sure would help out a bunch.
To me, this is the most difficult moral issue. The leader (notice I didn't say politician) that can come up with a way to fix the health care system, find a way for society to fulfill it's role of taking care of our weakest members (sick, dying, youngest, oldest) and still instill a sense of personal responsibility (not in the right-wing fanatical sense of the term) and self-respect, will be this country's savior, indeed. (And no, I'm not getting all religious on you.)
Until then, I'll drink another to you as I light my cigarette.
:D
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Big Bob
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Post: # 13327Post Big Bob »

Phrazz wrote:
if you smoke, then you are directly supporting this multi-trillion dollar industry, and that right there should freeze you in your tracks. Basically smokers who still wail out against Mcky D's or Mickey Mouse or even Mickey Roarke are still supporting the giagantic megalopoly killer complex whose sole purpose is to reap enormous profits at the expense of smokers and non-smokers alike (we're all the same in that regard, same with gasoline, just works more slowly..same with insurance and taxes).
This is true. When it comes to smoking tobacco, I'm sure there are pretty easy ways to buy tobacco that is homegrown or something along those lines. In this case, it is not smoking the cigarettes that isn't ethical, it is the support of the industry. Same goes for supporting the slaughterhouse beef industry. Once it is on your plate, there is nothing wrong with eating it. But i would be lying if I said that I never bought a burger or steak that I knew was supporting the industry. Sometimes my hunger/drunkeness overpowers my moral reasoning. That's something I gotta work on. Such are the consequences of being a self-interested being.

Hoby wrote:
One solution is to build shelters or enclosures for smokers who need to go outside to smoke. Give them a protected windbreak-type structure so that they don't have to stand in the doorway.
I have been involved in a discussion of such a proposal in a large class. The smokers almost unanymously were outraged by such an idea, citing that they will be greatly inconvenienced by needing to walk to a seperate structure just to smoke cigarettes (their God-given right). I think that the idea of building a wind-breaking structure away from the entrance of the building seems like a perfectly reasonable compromise. Of course, the college freshmen and sophomores in that particular class are not elected officials of all smokers and certainly do not speak for smokers as a whole.
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Post: # 13329Post etahn »

Hey, as long as we're talking about public vice, why doesn't someone stick up for public drinking? There's no town in America (<-shamelessly unverified fact) where you can drink in a public place, but nobody seems to care about that.

I wonder whether it's the change itself that matters, or simply the fact of the change that has people so upset. I personally hate it when the things I'm used to change without my approval, and spend some time suffering over it, and yet,

Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860) wrote:All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
I think the only difference between the sane man and the insane is that the sane has more people on his side.
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Post: # 13331Post headnugg »

hoby wrote:
headnugg wrote:
hoby wrote: How come etahn gets the benefit of the doubt on being funny and I don't?hoby
Cause you're not funny :lol:
Oh, man. Why not?? I use lots of laughing smilies. I was talking about pooping and stuff. What do I have to do, shoot a video of myself getting hit in the crotch with a golf club and send it to some TV show? Damn.

Anyway...
I don't think your going to the bathroom in public argument is relevant, because that action is against the law in the first place. So you can't take away someone's rights by not allowing them to urinate/defecate in public since they never had the option to do that in the first place. With this new bullshit rule, you're taking away a right(privilege?) that someone DID have to begin with.....
Look 'nugg, you need to take a longer view. Okay, how can I explain this so I'm making myself clear? Oh, wait...
but... a long long time ago, in a galaxy not-so far away, expelling bodily fluids/solids in public was in fact NOT illegal until some legislative body decided that yes, in fact, it SHOULD be illegal and therefore did so.

same deal with smoking.
wasn't illegal before. now folks are rethinking that and many are leaning towards the "yes, it should be illegal" side.
Thanks, magpie. That's the point I was taking for granted as common knowledge. I guess, 'nugg, you're not old enough to remember a time when people would start their morning by emptying their chamber pots in the street. Or dumping them out of their second story windows. Or maybe you just don't watch enough period-piece films by Merchant/Ivory. Or Monty Python:


I don't care why urinating/defecating on the street is illegal or when it was made illegal. For the sake of MY argument, it is all irrelevant. Because it IS illegal. Smoking on the street ISN't illegal. They're trying to make a RULE that you can't do it in Belmont. I'm saying they're taking away a basic human right, the right to smoke a cigarrette as you walk or drive down the street, or even light up in your own 2 family home. In 20 years, Hoby, your argument might be relevant, because maybe by then, smoking on the street will be just as illegal as taking a piss on the sidewalk. But right now it's not. And I think the town of Belmont is going way overboard to the point of invading your privacy and creating a police-like state.

Now at this point, I don't even remember exactly what we were arguing about......But again, as much as I hate smoking/smokers, it's complete Bullshit that any goverment organization should dictate your life to you. And don't be mistaken, that's what Belmont, MA is doing w/this new regulation. Will kids under 18 be forced to be home by 10PM next? Next thing they're going to say I can't smoke pot in the privacy of my own home or car! What's next I ask you? If we don't fight this now, we won't have the OPTION of fighting it in 50 years, when our goverment is dictating everything we can and can't do......The fight starts now!


hoby wrote:
I agree with you about smoking. It's gross. And I believe that second hand smoke is bad for you.
So we agree about the act of smoking and its effects. It feels like at this point the only thing we disagree on is the history of the legality of public toileting. That shouldn't stand in the way of friendship, right? So why can't I be funny, huh?

Trying hard to be liked,

hoby
OK, OK you're a fucking riot.....and I like you buddy! Yay!
Give us the Teachings of His Majesty, we don't want no devil philosophy.
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headnugg
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Post: # 13332Post headnugg »

etahn wrote:There's no town in America (<-shamelessly unverified fact) where you can drink in a public place, but nobody seems to care about that.

Sounds like you need to take a trip to NOLA boy! Not only can you go into a bar with a beer in your hand, you can buy a new beer and walk back out on to the street with it! It makes you feel really free........
Give us the Teachings of His Majesty, we don't want no devil philosophy.
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putty
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Post: # 13344Post putty »

the to-go cup also exists in Savannah, Ga. Meaning, you can walk around with alcohol.

But I see that law changing in the next 10 years or so, so I suggest visiting soon.
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